enough analysis!!

Friday, September 16, 2005

Does Islam Oppress Women ? (Part 2)

This is the second post , I will try to give brief views of the the social aspects of women in Islam , that I got from some researches , and will try to elaboratemore in the following posts ISA.

The Social Aspect of Women in Islam:]

A) As a Daughter:
(1) The Quran ended the cruel practice of female infanticide, which was before Islam. God said:
And when the girl (who was) buried alive is asked, for what sin she was killed” (Quran, 81:8-9)

(2) The Quran went further to rebuke the unwelcoming attitude of some parents upon hearing the news of the birth of a baby girl, instead of a baby boy. God has said:

And when one of them is informed of (the birth of) a female, his face becomes dark, and he suppresses grief. He hides himself from the people because of the ill of which he has been informed. Should he keep it in humiliation or bury it in the ground? Certainly, evil is what they decide. “ (Quran 16:58-59)

(3) Parents are duty-bound to support and show kindness and justice to their daughters. The Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) said: “ Whosoever supports two daughters until they mature, he and I will come on the Day of Judgment as this (and he pointed with his fingers held together)”}

B) As a Wife:

(1) Marriage in Islam is based on mutual peace, love, and compassion, and not just the mere satisfying of human sexual desire. Among the most impressive verses in the Quran about marriage is the following:
And of His signs is: that He created for you from yourselves mates that you may find tranquility in them; and He placed between you affection and mercy. Indeed in that are signs for a people who give thought.” (Quran, 30:21)

(2) The female has the right to accept or reject marriage proposals. According to the Islamic Law, women cannot be forced to marry anyone without their consent.

Ibn Abbas reported that a girl came to the Prophet Muhammad (PBUH), and she reported that her father had forced her to marry without her consent. The Messenger of God gave her the choice . . . (between accepting the marriage or invalidating it). (Ibn Hanbal No. 2469). In another version, the girl said: "Actually I accept this marriage but I wanted to let women know that parents have no right (to force a husband on them)" (Ibn Maja, No. 1873)

3- The concept of Mahr, marriage gift , in Islam is neither an actual or symbolic price for the woman, as was the case in certain cultures, but rather it is a gift symbolizing love and affection

4- Islam encourages the husband to treat his wife well, as the Prophet Muhammad ( PBUH) said: “ The best among you are those who are best to their wives.”
Prophet Muhammad. (PBUH) said:
The best of you is the best to his family and I am the best among you to my family. “
He also told the Muslims: "Fear Allah in respect of women." And: "The best of you are they who behave best to their wives."

5- The husband is responsible for the maintenance, protection, and overall leadership of the family, within the framework of consultation and kindness.

6- Islam emphasizes the importance of taking counsel and mutual agreement in family decisions. The Qur'an gives us an example:
"...If they (husband wife) desire to wean the child by mutual consent and (after) consultation, there is no blame on them..." (Qur'an 2: 233).

7- The Quran urges husbands to be kind and considerate to their wives, even if a wife falls out of favor with her husband or disinclination for her arises within him:
“...And live with them in kindness. For if you dislike them, perhaps you dislike a thing and God makes therein much good. “ (Quran, 4:19)

Prophet Muhammed (PBUH) said : "A Muslim must not hate his wife, and if he be displeased with one bad quality in her, let him be pleased with one that is good." And: "The more civil and kind a Muslim is to his wife, the more perfect in faith he is"

(8) Divorce is a last resort, permissible but not encouraged, for the Quran esteems the preservation of faith and the individual’s right -male and female alike- to felicity. Forms of marriage dissolution include an enactment based upon mutual agreement, the husband’s initiative, the wife’s initiative (if part of her marital contract), the court’s decision on a wife’s initiative (for a legitimate reason), and the wife’s initiative without a cause, provided that she returns her marital gift to her husband. When the continuation of the marriage relationship is impossible for any reason, men are still taught to seek a gracious end for it. The Quran states about such cases:
And when you divorce women and they have fulfilled their term (i.e. waiting period), either keep them in kindness or release them in kindness, and do not keep them, intending harm, to transgress (against them). “ (Quran, 2:231)


C) As a Mother:
(1) Islam considered kindness to parents next to the worship of God.
The Quran elevates kindness to parents (especially mothers) to a status second to the worship of God:

Your Lord has commanded that you worship none but Him, and that you be kind to your parents. If one of them or both of them reach old age with you, do not say to them a word of disrespect, or scold them, but say a generous word to them. And act humbly to them in mercy, and say, “My Lord, have mercy on them, since they cared for me when I was small.” (Quran, 17:23-24,)

"And we have enjoined upon man (to be good) to his parents: His mother bears him in weakness upon weakness..." (Qur'an 31:14)

In another tradition, the Prophet (PBUH) advised a believer not to join the war against the Quraish in defense of Islam, but to look after his mother, saying that his service to his mother would be a cause of his salvation. Mu'awiyah, the son of Jahimah, reported that Jahimah came to the Prophet (peace be upon him) and said, " Messenger of Allah! I want to join the fighting (in the path of Allah) and I have come to seek your advice." He said, "Then remain in your mother's service, because Paradise is under her feet."

Mothers in Islam are highly honored. Islam recommends treating them in the best way. A man came to the Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) and said, “O Messenger of God! Who among the people is the most worthy of my good companionship?” The Prophet (PBUH) said: {Your mother.} The man said, “Then who?” The Prophet (PBUH) said: {Then your mother.} The man further asked, “Then who?” The Prophet (PBUH) said: {Then your mother.} The man asked again, “Then who?” The Prophet (PBUH) said: {Then your father.}

D) As a Sister in Faith (In General):

The Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) taught kindness, care, and respect toward women in general: {I commend you to be good to women.} It is significant that such instruction of the Prophet was among his final instructions and reminders in the farewell pilgrimage address given shortly before his passing away.

Prophet Muhammed (PBUH) encouraged his followers to marry the widows, because of the responsibility of maintaining the children and earning that falls upon them.
Abu Hurairah reported that the Prophet said: "One who makes efforts (to help) the widow or a poor person is like a mujahid (warrior) in the path of Allah, or like one who stands up for prayers in the night and fasts in the day."

I will try to elaborate more in that in the next post ISA.

46 Comments:

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At 9/16/2005 12:34 PM, Blogger Flanstein said...

The hijab, the burka, the chador, the polygamy, the divorce that the man achieves by uttering a phrase three times, the unequal inheritance laws, the inability of women in many Muslim countries to leave the house without a male relative as escort, the ban in some Muslim countries on women even driving — all this is part of the oppressive evil of islam.

 
At 9/16/2005 12:47 PM, Blogger Flanstein said...

1. The Qur’an likens a woman to a field (tilth), to be used by a man as he wills: “Your women are a tilth for you (to cultivate) so go to your tilth as ye will” (2:223);

2. It declares that a woman’s testimony is worth half that of a man: “Get two witnesses, out of your own men, and if there are not two men, then a man and two women, such as ye choose, for witnesses, so that if one of them errs, the other can remind her” (2:282);

3. It allows men to marry up to four wives, and have sex with slave girls also: “If ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly with the orphans, marry women of your choice, two or three or four; but if ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly (with them), then only one, or (a captive) that your right hands possess, that will be more suitable, to prevent you from doing injustice” (4:3);

4. It rules that a son’s inheritance should be twice the size of that of a daughter: “Allah (thus) directs you as regards your children’s (inheritance): to the male, a portion equal to that of two females” (4:11);

5. It tells husbands to beat their disobedient wives: “Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah hath guarded. As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them” (4:34).

It will take some creative rereading to blunt the force of these and other Qur’anic passages that mandate second-class status for women and consign all too many women in the Islamic world to the status of mere possessions of their husbands. That last verse has particularly troubling implications.

The Pakistan Institute of Medical Sciences has determined that over nine out of ten Pakistani wives have been struck, beaten, or abused sexually — for offenses on the order of cooking an unsatisfactory meal. Others were punished for failing to give birth to a male child.

 
At 9/16/2005 2:07 PM, Blogger roora said...

flanstein:

1- "The Pakistan Institute of Medical Sciences has determined that over nine out of ten Pakistani wives have been struck, beaten, or abused sexually — for offenses on the order of cooking an unsatisfactory meal. Others were punished for failing to give birth to a male child" It just proves the point i said in your blog, it is due to the cultue , and as I said in my first post (if you read it ) and you read the comments you would of understand what i want to say is that the mistake is not in Islam , it is in the way the people act according to their culture , which may seem for some (for muslims and non muslims )that men are superior to women and that is intrue. So what they need is sort of awareness.
Because simply I can argye you in that because I was watching Soap Opea and she was showing awful examples of how some husbands in the States abused their wices terribly , and they were non muslim ,. DO you get what i mean ?
And that is applied for driving too. It is out of culture.

Second: Regarding hijab , it is an obligation by God and I will g for it in the third post and it is not a sort of oppression , this is better to be prescribed and to be modest beside that as God required from us to be in veil , required from the men and women to lower down their gaze. But I will go through that as much as I can from the researches ISA in the next post but not now.

 
At 9/16/2005 2:45 PM, Blogger roora said...

Third : the verse states " YOur wives are a tilth for you, so go to your tilth, when or how you will and send (good deeds, or ask Allah to bestow upon you opious offspring)for you themselves beforehand" (2, 223)
so what is wrong in that ? It is for husbands who have wives , they have the right in that , it is more and better for their chastity . There is extreemly nothing offensive for women here !

2- Regarding the women witness is half the man , A common but erroneous belief is that as a "rule," the worth of women's testimony is one half of men's testimony. A survey of all passages in the Quran relating to testimony does not substantiate this claimed "rule."
Most Quranic references to testimony (witness) do not make any reference to gender. Some references fully equate the testimony of males and females, and one reference in the Quran distinguishes between the witness of a male and a female. The context of this passage (verse, or ayah) relates to testimony on financial transactions, which are often complex and laden with business jargon. The only reason given is to corroborate the female's witness and prevent unintended errors in the perception of the business deal. I was planning t go into that in the next post as well ISA In more detail.

Fifth : Regarding the inheritance
I will try to go into that in the next post ISA, from the researches found, but any way you can read the second post and you may try to understand the reason.

I will try to go into the other aspects you mentioned as well ISA.

 
At 9/17/2005 8:16 AM, Blogger kevin said...

Alaykum salam Roora,

don't bother trying to arguing with flanstein, your wasting your breath.

You inspired me to think about this some: Love

 
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At 9/18/2005 7:26 PM, Blogger Flanstein said...

roora,

Those areas where you claim I have misunderstood your faith, I was simply repeating what muslim men have said about women. If many muslim men have gotten it wrong, don't you then agree that your religion is due for a complete reformation so that everyone can get it right?

Wouldn't it be a positive step if muslims stopped hating Jews, Christians, Hindus and everyone else? Stopped torturing and killing children? Stopped blowing up buses and flying planes full of people into buildings full of people?

If it's just a question of muslims really understanding what your holy book is saying - who is responsible for ensuring that is going to happen?

 
At 9/18/2005 9:18 PM, Blogger LouLou said...

"Those areas where you claim I have misunderstood your faith, I was simply repeating what muslim men have said about women. "

Really?You've personally interviewed ALL Muslim men of all sects & backgrounds & they've all told you their opinion of women?

"Wouldn't it be a positive step if muslims stopped hating Jews, Christians, Hindus and everyone else? "

Interesting idea coming from someone who dedicates an entire website to hatred of Muslims. Is it us who are spewing hatred at you now or is it you?Has anyone here attacked you in anyway or even questioned you or showed the slightest interest in who or what you believe in?

"Stopped torturing and killing children?"

Unless you have information that roora has been killing & torturing children you should really stop embarrassing yourself with such theatrics. I know you think it's very impressive but it really just makes you look ridiculous.

'Muslims' are close to 2 billion people in 57 countries. If you have statistics that all of us are torturing & killing children let's see them. Come on. That should be at least 2 billion cases of child abuse & infanticide. Let's see them.

 
At 9/19/2005 1:45 AM, Blogger roora said...

kevin ,i will check your post seems to be nice .

 
At 9/19/2005 2:04 AM, Blogger roora said...

yes beside that flanstein , I noticed that you are writing some verses in your blog, not even mentioned in quran, and you are publishing them in public and they are completely false. I couldn;t believe my self when i read some verses in your site claiming they are in the holy book while they aren't.

not only that YOU also mentioned a hadith to doshar about how islam treats children and women in wars ,and Prophet Muhammed (PBUH) just said the complete opposite ,during the wars,
"Do not lay hands on the old verging on death, on women, children and babes. Do not steal anything from the booty and collect together all that falls to your lot in the battlefield and do good, for Allah loves the virtuous and the pious"
so I think you are the one who should reform what to be said from untruth things before claiming that any body should.

I agree with Loulou , did you make an interview for all muslims, beside who told you that there are no variations among people's behaviours in other religons, should we generalize ?

I propose to you , to try to stop being prejudice between you and yourself and think in a more objective mind.

 
At 9/19/2005 4:59 AM, Blogger Flanstein said...

Roora,

Once again you have misunderstood the content of my blog. I have not misinterpreted anything - I have simply repeated that which muslims themselves have used to justify killing.

Interpretation is merely reflecting the Qur'anic imperative enshrined in Sura 9:29 for Jews and Christians: conversion to Islam, subjugation as an inferior class, or death. "Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."

And this, of course, is not a single verse "taken out of context," but the linchpin of an entire system that plays out in the Hadith, Islamic law, and Islamic history. Your Prophet Muhammad amplifies these choices here:

Fight in the name of Allah and in the way of Allah. Fight against those who disbelieve in Allah. Make a holy war... When you meet your enemies who are polytheists, invite them to three courses of action. If they respond to any one of these you also accept it and withhold yourself from doing them any harm. Invite them to (accept) Islam; if they respond to you, accept it from them and desist from fighting against them....If they refuse to accept Islam, demand from them the Jizya. If they agree to pay, accept it from them and hold off your hands. If they refuse to pay the tax, seek Allah’s help and fight them. (Sahih Muslim 4294)

Either you believe the koran is the word of your god or you do not. If you do, then the above tells you what?

 
At 9/19/2005 5:03 AM, Blogger Flanstein said...

loulou,

I will repeat what I said earlier about how women are treated in islam:

The hijab, the burka, the chador, the polygamy, the divorce that the man achieves by uttering a phrase three times, the unequal inheritance laws, the inability of women in many Muslim countries to leave the house without a male relative as escort, the ban in some Muslim countries on women even driving — all this is part of the oppressive evil of islam.

How do you justify it?

p.s. muslums make up 1.2 - 1.3 billion people not the 2 billion that you claim...

 
At 9/19/2005 6:18 AM, Blogger LouLou said...

"How do you justify it?"

I don't need to justify it because it's crap. Am a Muslim woman with relatives in 3 different Muslim countries and living in a 4th one. Have never worn hijab or burka or chador in any of them. All the women I know who wear it wear it because they want to - like roora & doshar.

Why not put some real research where your mouth is & tell us how many Muslim countries out of how many actually force women to veil like the Taliban or Saudi?Give us a percentage.

Btw have been driving since I was 18 years old.

Two Muslim countries - Bengladesh & Indonesia have had women heads of state.

In Bengladesh the head of the main opposition party is also a woman. And Turkey has also had a woman head of state.

Watching a couple of news reports about the Taliban or Saudi Arabia doesn't make you an expert on the lives of all Muslim women in all Muslim countries. And certainly doesn't give you the right to speak for us.

 
At 9/19/2005 10:12 AM, Blogger Flanstein said...

So you are saying no muslim women are required to wear the muslim potato sack? The divorce and inheritance laws are equitable? Women can leave the house and walk around without their husband or father? You can drive anywhere and everywhere you want?

 
At 9/19/2005 11:05 AM, Blogger LouLou said...

"Women can leave the house and walk around without their husband or father? You can drive anywhere and everywhere you want?"

Yes to both questions.

For the rest I'll try to find you some links later. It's simply too long to explain in comments.

 
At 9/19/2005 11:52 AM, Blogger Flanstein said...

"Yes to both questions."

Even here in Canada, many muslim women are not allowed to leave the house without their husband father or son. In Pakistan (where I have been)women are completely subservient to men and have few individual freedoms.

And of course, let's not forget about the birthplace of islam and the home of Mecca and Medina - a hell-hole of a place for women, Saudi Arabia.

This is the place where religious police stopped schoolgirls from leaving a blazing building because they were not wearing correct Islamic dress and 15 girls died.

In Pakistan, an average of two women every day die from 'honor killings,' often with Allah's names on the lips of the murderers." Source: Dr. Riffat Hassan quoting Amnesty International, in Neva Welton and Linda Wolf, eds., Global Uprising: Confronting the Tyrannies of the 21st Century – Stories from a New Generation of Activists (Gabriola Island, British Columbia: New Society Publishers, 2001), p. 214.

 
At 9/19/2005 1:37 PM, Blogger roora said...

Flanstein,
First : you didn;t responsd to my claim by a good answer , writing false ahadith and verses and claiming that they are from quran in your blog and giving a reason that you are repeating what muslims say sounds really redicilous, I propose you to be honest in your display because if any reader to your blog who has no clue about the verses in quran , will think that they are actually written , you should be more HONEST in your displaying things, and not saying things and giving reasons that you are only repreating what muslims say because this sounds rediciclous.

Second, I can argue you with that in so well , and there are so many answers (if you are willing to know on the first basis to seek knowledge ) and not just trying depict out something to be said, the jizyah on the non muslims , is because they are not be among the army and this upon their protection and if they can pay , and afford to pay it. But i can answer you in that better if i canhave more time where I can get you more links to answer for that, anyway if you are interested to know and research as those who research properly , you can find in the published islamic websites such www.islamonline.com. www.islamonline.net , www.sultan.org,

these are credible islamic sites and talking about all the issues , using the verses from quran and the hadith

 
At 9/19/2005 1:45 PM, Blogger LouLou said...

Flanstein,

This is what I meant about being repetitive. Why do you keep quoting examples from Pakistan or Saudi?

Your problem is not showing individual examples from individual countries.That has not been disputed.The task you've set yourself is to prove that this is widespread & is infact the lot of all or most Muslim women.

Btw seems to me like keeping someone confined to their house is criminal in Canada. So why aren't the police doing anything to help all these thousands of poor confined Muslim Canadian women?

Incidentally are Muslim women the only abused women in Canada?

 
At 9/19/2005 7:58 PM, Blogger Aisha said...

nice post roora.

 
At 9/19/2005 10:09 PM, Blogger DrMaxtor said...

Asalam Aliakum,
Nice blog. Dont waste your time arguing with fecalstein, he really wants you to visit his blog. The stupid zio-putz is looking for attention. Just delete his comments so he scream "anti-semetism" reflexively.

 
At 9/20/2005 5:00 AM, Blogger roora said...

thanks aisha :)

drmaxtor , you are totally right i agree with you i feel like i am wasting my breath actually with him like kevin said.

 
At 9/20/2005 6:20 AM, Blogger Flanstein said...

Loulou,

Then point me to one single islamic country that treat women equally. One.

 
At 9/20/2005 1:38 PM, Blogger jessy said...

Alrighty then, apparently flanstein you do enjoy repeating what others tell you, see the thing you're doing is generalising.. you can't apply every frickin experience you've been through to 1.3 billion people as you've correctly claimed. It's simply not right. Religion, regardless of Islam or Christianity or watever, is personal, and intertwined with it are endless cultural values that have perservered,and somehow, these are facts of life. And to name one country where muslim women are treated more than well.. you have Malaysia.. where tolerance is the key.

 
At 9/20/2005 4:18 PM, Blogger LouLou said...

jessy,

And Tunisia . And Morroco. And Turkey . And UAE.

In addition I've already posted information about 3 of the most populous Muslim countries having or having had female heads of states. So we know that at least 3 Muslim women managed to leave their houses long enough to win elections & to rule over millions upon millions of Muslim men who voted for them.

 
At 9/20/2005 4:24 PM, Blogger Dalulla said...

Roora, i appologize, but i will be taking up plenty of space.. forgive me please :-)


Flanstein,

This comment is in response to your comments here and to your post about "Islam hates women".

Islam does not order anything about beating women for wearing hijab. Rather it is one of the God given orders and those who choose to follow do and those who don't, just don't but do bear it's sin just as any other sins committed but that does not belittle the good deeds and God's mercy, but sins do vary there are major and minor sins which is a sign of God's justice on mankind. It is a relationship between creator and creation one to one basis.

Besides what is it you people want? You have enough barely dressed women all over your country, why is it that u want everyone to be the same? Why is covering a woman's body bothering you so much? I honestly do not understand. Why do you not criticize Nuns for covering their bodies up, or an average American decent woman who does not like to show much of her flesh? What surprises me is sometimes they become a mockery and are made fun of, in schools or Universities or at work. Why is chastity something that is considered bad? Why is it that at some gynecologists before a woman gets married and is going for a check up prior to marriage and is a virgin is advised to go to a psychiatrist??? What is wrong with a woman that wants to protect her flesh from men who may desire her body? Why is it so wrong from our prespective?

In all cases even that has been brought up in the Quraan. God mentioned that the Jews and Christians shall never be content till Moslems abandon their beliefs. It is not really a surprise because more than 1,400 years we have been warned and told of exactly what is happening now.

By the way, I am not bias against Jews or Christians, Actually I have many friends whom are Christians, and only one actually who is a Buddhist from the US which is the case of many Moslems as well.

In Islam we are encouraged to be tolerant of other religions. No one is to be forced into embracing Islam since simply there would be no point to it! You claimed that Jihadists are attempting to do that which is besides the point.

The violence we are all experiencing today after 9/11 has been stimulated by the United States foreign policies. What business is it of the US government to but into other countries affairs? Or is the US gov. the ruler of the world? I would like to add, I have nothing against US citizens, but it is the government and its foreign polices that we are all fed up of.

Who told The US to go to Iraq? or to Afghanistan? Look at the violence they stimulated. Injustice makes people pop out of their wits. You cannot expect the people to be silent any more. Who has been killing children, women and elderly innocent people lately huh? Do you think that most of your country's soldiers were happy being on these missions? A great percentage were not, the only ones who were, were the psychopaths that were in Abu Ghreib prison and some others, but I am sure minorities were in acceptance to this bloody war. There have been beautiful young men and women who would have rather served their country and went back home to their families and loved ones I am sure. I know they died in vain and this is not me saying so, it is your own people. Your own media. People got fed up from both sides yours and ours. No one wants war.

What about the mafia? What origin are they from? What religion do you suppose they are following or at least labeled with? How about the street gangsters and the street shootings that have been happening in your country for years and years. What about black women and children who have been killed with no mercy by racists? What did Islam have to do with those? Before your country's government decided to go to free people and fix things up, why couldn't they make peace on your own streets first? Why can't it truly protect a woman. Why does your law need articles about sexual harassment on such large scales if it were not taking place to a great extent? I am not saying it does not happen in our countries, but not in the manner or scale it does at yours.

Please. You are just being bias without understanding anything the way it should be. As many others, Islam is a very peaceful religion, but it is not a passive one.

What would you do if you went home one day and found strangers telling you to get the hell out and that it is not your home anymore (the case in Palestine)

What would you do if all of a sudden some one marched into your country and said their reason for doing so is because they believe they should free you of your president, and kill innocent people on the way and destroy homes and lives!?? Tell me what would you do? Resist or hide?

There has been unwanted intervention from the United States for too long. Now people are just fed up.

This Hijab issue you're clinging onto is not anyone's business but the woman who decides she would do it. The beating for doing it is not true to a great extent. And if it does happen it is on minute scales and due to misinterpretations of the people who do it. But when we come to the beating topic, you tell me, how many women are beaten up violently in the US? How many are raped? How many are sexually harrased. How many daughters have been raped by fathers or brothers. Again this may happen anywhere, so why are u accusing Islam about it?

I left you a comment at Doshar's by the way, in connection to the last few lines of the paragraph above.

Just leave Islam and Moslems alone, let it be the least of your concerns. And when you do and if u really want to bring it up please do it with some respect.

Oh i would like to add that in the bible, Genesis 2,3- The fall of Man, it is mentioned that Eve was the source of sin: "To the woman he (God) said, "I will greatly increase your pains in childbearing; with pain your shall five birth to children. Your desire will be for your husband and he will rule over you." To Adam he said, "Because you listened to your wife and ate from the tree about which I commanded you, "You must not eat of it, "cursed is the ground because of you......

It is so strange how now you speak of Islamic concepts about women!!! Or about humans in general for that matter.

In the Quraan, Both were told they had both sinned EQUALLY and they shall be sent to earth and will not enjoy the gifts of luxury of heaven, rather they would have to work hard to live. Which I think was fair enough.
And besides, how could child birth be referred to as a punishment anyway? God is much more compassionate than that.

The proof is, a mother knows about the pain she might endure while pregnant and during child birth and still goes through it, once and twice and thrice and sometimes more! It is one of the things that is done gladly by a woman. God is merciful, in the Quraan it is mentioned that it is tiring but not a punishment. Psychologically speaking if we felt it were a punishment, the human race would have vanished long ago!? You and I would feel we are a result of a punishment of GOD…

And what about the phrase in the above mentioned where God is referring to Eve telling her: "Your desire will be for your husband and he will "rule" over you.

??? ???????????????????????????

So even in the Bible it is mentioned that a husband rules over his wife!??? Why all the fuss about Islam then?

At least in the Quraan and in the Prophet's sayings there are so many references to dealing with a woman in compassion, love and most importantly respect! Even if man made laws do not punish some for their violence against women, God promises vengeance for those who dare harm someone weaker than them, namely a man versus woman or the like… Prophet Muhammed (Allahoma Saly 3aleih – May God's blessings and prayers be on him) Died saying Treat women with goodness, Treat women with goodness, Treat women with goodness. Three times while he was dying! And while he lived there are tons and tons of sayings where prophet Mohammed encouraged and ordered the respect and reverence of women in society and He never belittled her great role in Society. A mother brings out generations and those generations are the ones who make societies. This is what Islam enjoins. This is how Moslems are brought up.

In war, Moslems are not to kill children, women or elderly people. Moslems are not to kill some one with no weapon to defend them selves.

Women have been given rank in society after Islam, given rights and men were ordered to give them due rights and to pamper them and treat them well. If some men don't it is a defect in human nature, a problem with some people who do not abide to Islamic teachings. It happens in all societies not just in Islamic ones.

Just because a woman covers up that means she is oppressed?? Honestly this is the silliest thing I have ever heard in my life! Women have faced oppression in many non Moslem societies as well and still are on a much larger scale than ours.. We do not have single, unmarried mothers not knowing what to do with themselves or with their children, we do not have strip clubs where a woman's body is merely a cheap commodity, prostitution is not legal, women and children are given rights by law! I could keep going on and on!

Why bring religion in the middle? No one broke your home door down and forced you to embrace it, so why are you people taking this issue upon yourselves in this manner? Honestly? What are your true reasons?

Where inheritance is concerned, in Islam a man is responsible for providing for a family. What's so bad about that?

Your countries claim that etiquette and ethics were their own inventions and that the Arabs and Moslems are savage (which is so far from reality whether you admit to it or not). Ethically and socially in your own societies, when a man takes a woman out for a date, who pays the bill? When a man marries a woman who is usually responsible for paying the bills, a woman may share the responsibility, if she wills or if there was an agreement before marriage, which is also fine in Islam. But for instance, would a man take full responsibility of house chores and raising kids?

And please do not bring up nannies in this issue, because nannies have been misused in the past couple of years – a mother should raise her own children with the help of a nanny, but not completely rely on her to be the substitute mother and father sometimes, because no one shall love your children and raise them the way the mother will. Is it normal for a woman to be the provider while her husband sits back at home doing nothing whatsoever? A man cannot substitute for a mother's role the way she will do it. Even if a man is so full of love, he will never be as available as a mother will be.

Honestly I can keep writing and writing about this issue and not get tired, I am hoping you might think in a more sensible manner than the way you are. Islam is not a bad religion, try to understand it properly, go to the people who will properly explain and clarify things for you rather than understanding things the way you just want to or to blindly misjudge a religion such as Islam. WE are encouraged to respect other religions, even if we do not agree to them, so please before you go ahead and keep attacking and criticizing go first and understand clearly what Islamic doctrines are all about, be patient till u get it all cleared up and then come back and answer.

 
At 9/20/2005 4:43 PM, Blogger Dalulla said...

I would just like to add something concerning my sentence saying even if we do not agree to them, religions that is. Just to be clear we do believe in Chritianity and Jewism, and rever the prophets who carried the message, but what we do not agree to are the false additions that have been added. In Romania (i think) there are currently ongoing discussions about the credibility of the content of the Bible. The additions made also were mentioned in the Quraan. If you would like to read more about these additions please visit this site if you are open enough and fair enough to at least understand what Islamic scholars have to say and sources from the bible have also been mentioned in there. In the search engine of the following site, please write "Bible" and read from the results that shall appear to you. http://www.islam-guide.com/

 
At 9/21/2005 7:07 AM, Blogger Flanstein said...

"Why is it that at some gynecologists before a woman gets married and is going for a check up prior to marriage and is a virgin is advised to go to a psychiatrist???"

Perhaps the funniest thing anyone has said on the Internet yet this year. Where do you get these ideas?

Your post is so long, I am, in a short while, going to repost it and answer it on my blog

 
At 9/21/2005 8:29 AM, Blogger Flanstein said...

My response to your nonsense is up at:

http://flanstein.blogspot.com

 
At 9/21/2005 6:59 PM, Blogger Dalulla said...

Ofcourse to a non sensible person what i said will not make sense.

You do not comment to any of the questions directed to you and you keep repeating yourself about things that have already been answered. What was your answer to the part about the verses quoted from the Bible? Nothing? What was your answer about Amercian women being beaten up for absolutely non sensible reasons? Nothing. and what right does a man have over a girlfriend to beat her up? A man would not dare do such a thing in our countries. Religion protects women by advising them not to do such a thing, but it happens any way, which is a one to one judgement thing between the person and God. But in all cases a man would not dare touch a woman in the manner women are in your country. A woman would not cheapen herself in places such as strip clubs! A woman would not do her kids harm by bringing them into this world with no father, at least from the psychological point of view, unless she has been disobedient and therefore not only bares the burden but also gives her kid a burden of not having a loving and supporting father like any other normal and legitimate child.

 
At 9/21/2005 7:17 PM, Blogger Dalulla said...

Flanstein
about your comment on your blog concernig no one wants war. I would like to suggest something, why not go volunteer to go on one of the missions and be part of it, instead of sitting comfortably at home infront of your computer arguing and share the experience.

When you come back tell us how it felt. Tell us that you enjoyed it. If you should get injured like one of your poor fellow Americans have or lost a leg or arm or eye or whatever (God forbid), come back and tell us you feel good about yourself, and that you feel that this mission was really essential, worth loosing a part of your body for. Or seeing a fellow American shattered in pieces, or see one of the kids of Iraq or any other country shattered in pieces on the ground! You would gladly do that, only if you are blood thirsty, because I think no money compensation or merit will make you feel the same again. There is certainly nothing for any one in this unjustified blood shed(except who have personal gain without lifting a finger of course).

 
At 9/22/2005 7:50 AM, Blogger Wonderer said...

Hello roora, kevin, loulou,

The purpose of a discussion is either to convince someone of your opinion or to let him/her convince you of theirs. In the case of the respectable FLANSTEIN, we will never be convinced of his sick opinions. Also, his hatred to Islam is blinding him from understanding the true essence of Islam. Believe me, flanstein IS NOT WORTH wasting your time with him. If he wants to hate Islam, he is most welcomed. Muslims are not waiting for him to evaluate them. By the way flanstein, we don't hate Jews or Christians cause the 2 religions are considered holly and sacred to us. Islam is the continuation of God's message to the Jews and the Christians after sending them the first two HOLLY BOOKS

 
At 9/22/2005 8:29 AM, Blogger Flanstein said...

"By the way flanstein, we don't hate Jews or Christians cause "

Liar. the hatred of Jews and Christians is epidemic in muslim countries...

 
At 9/22/2005 11:50 AM, Blogger roora said...

"Liar. the hatred of Jews and Christians is epidemic in muslim countries"
Flanstine , you far exceeded your limits , and I feel that you are a person full of hatred,

if any one hates any body will hate him /her for the offensive behaviour regardless of the religon they posses.

 
At 9/22/2005 12:48 PM, Blogger Flanstein said...

This took me about five seconds to look up - they're literally hundreds of news stories itemizing the systemic hatred of Jews by muslims:


http://heraldsun.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5478,15714027^2862,00.html

http://www.washtimes.com/commentary/20031028-083517-4718r.htm

http://www.canoe.ca/NewsStand/Columnists/Calgary/Licia_Corbella/2005/07/31/1154121.html

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/10/17/1066364483615.html

http://memritv.org/Transcript.asp?P1=669

 
At 9/22/2005 1:57 PM, Blogger roora said...

flanstine , you are not welcome to write in my blog any more because you simply exceeded your refined manners in debates.

Not because you disagree with us , I disagreed before with so many (muslims and non muslims) in dofferent views and concepts but honestly you are the worst example in those who can hold up a debate without imposing their opinions or being offensie.

Write what you want in your blog but not in mine any more!

Just one last thing about the sites you brought about the muslims hatred (although this was out of the original aim of my post ) but anyways , I didn;t check them , but I would like to repeat what I said if any body makes unhuman actions and behaviors will be hated regardless of which religon he posses, and why don;t you turn around and take a look on how muslims women and men were treated by invadors and they aren;t under your sympathy and your defense, i am not looking for your sympathy , i am just showimg how you are selective in your issues!

BTW, i am not looking for a response because simply I don;t wana see any more comments from your side on my blog!

 
At 9/22/2005 2:31 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

""By the way flanstein, we don't hate Jews or Christians"

According to a July 2005 poll by the Pew Research Center for the People & the Press on global attitudes toward religious groups, 100 percent of Jordanian respondents said they either had a "very unfavorable" or "somewhat unfavorable" view of Jews.

 
At 9/23/2005 2:56 AM, Blogger Wonderer said...

"100 percent of Jordanian respondents said they either had a "very unfavorable" or "somewhat unfavorable" view of Jews"


Anonymous,
We don't hate Jews, cause as I've said before, the Jewish religion is a scared and holly one, sent by God to the people at a certain stage.

However, we DO HATE ZIONISM (Israel). The Zion are the people who attacked Palestine, killed the innocents, deprived the natives of their rights ... in other words, they are the ENEMY.

There is a huge difference between Zionism and Jews, is that the first is a tyrant political system and the second is a holly religion.

As for the Christians, we really DO NOT hate them for any reason. In our country we have many of them and many of our close friends are Christians.

 
At 9/23/2005 8:00 AM, Blogger Paul said...

Sounds like respect and certainly not disrespect of women was the intention.

Still, is it that men are to lead and women are to follow - they are not equals? Certainly this has been the view pretty much around the world, I think, in most cultures.

Yet frankly I find myself wondering if men on the whole are really wiser than women. If anything, to me it seems the other way around...

 
At 9/23/2005 8:30 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

"We don't hate Jews, cause as I've said before, the Jewish religion is a scared and holly one"

Yest the facts don't lie; fully 100 per cent of Jordanians hate Jews.

 
At 9/23/2005 3:23 PM, Blogger roora said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

 
At 9/23/2005 3:26 PM, Blogger roora said...

Paul , it doesn;t mean that if men (fathers, husbands )are protectors on us , it means we are less , because GOd is fair and He is judging us on our punishmnets and our rewards equally . Each has his own unique chracterstics that God had created and the other Gender don't have.

I actually liked doshar's comment about that very much in that at shirazi post.

There should be a protector and a maintainer in any relation, and husbands should do that , not only in terms of financial responsibility but in terms of our protection , and our safety.

However the relations should not be built as " men to be dictators " . However Islam encourages taking counseling through quran and sunnah (between men and women.

 
At 9/24/2005 9:10 AM, Anonymous Ahmed said...

Excellent post, Roora, and excellent responses to the critical comments. Rabbina yibarik feeki. What's ur email please?

 
At 9/24/2005 12:01 PM, Blogger roora said...

Thanks ya AHmed , i don't know all what i worte is mainly brought from many internet sites and i just collected them together , my email is enoughanalysis@yahoo.com

 
At 3/07/2007 2:35 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

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At 3/07/2007 2:47 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

race class and gender in the united state

 

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